In this episode of Early Childhood Chapters, we welcome Dr. Rachel Larimore with Samara Early Learning, an expert in nature-based early childhood education. Dr. Larimore shares her insights on why outdoor learning is essential for young children, how educators and caregivers can integrate nature into daily routines, and the long-term benefits of connecting children with the natural world.
Key Topics Discussed:
- The definition of nature-based early childhood education and how it differs from traditional approaches.
- The benefits of outdoor learning, including cognitive, social-emotional, and physical development.
- Practical ways to incorporate nature into early childhood settings, even in urban environments.
- Overcoming challenges such as weather concerns, safety considerations, and administrative buy-in.
- The role of play in outdoor learning and how educators can facilitate meaningful experiences.
- How parents and caregivers can support nature-based learning at home.
Interview Transcript
The following is a lightly edited transcript of our interview.
Emily Garman: Welcome to Early Childhood Chapters, the podcast where we break down the latest research and best practices in early childhood education into actionable strategies for your classroom and home. I'm your host, Emily Garman. And today we're diving into one of my favorite topics: nature-based education.
Our guest today is Dr. Rachel Larimore, a leading expert in outdoor learning and the author of two books with Gryphon House. Through her work as a consultant, she helps schools integrate nature into their curriculum, whether they're enhancing an existing program or creating an entirely new outdoor-based school. In this episode, we'll discuss why outdoor play is essential for young children's development; how educators can advocate for the importance of nature based learning and practical ways to overcome challenges like budget constraints and scheduling, so that every child has access to the benefits of an outdoor education. If you've ever wondered how to bring more nature into your classroom or program, this conversation is for you.
So okay, well, let's kick it off. So welcome to the podcast, Dr. Rachel Larimore.
Rachel Larimore, PhD: Love it.
Emily Garman: We're here. It's April. We're talking about environmental education, getting kids outdoors. Everybody's feeling the itch of spring and wanting to get outside. So that's what we're talking about with you, as somebody who is really an expert in this field and spends a lot of time studying and working with schools to help them involve more nature into their curriculum and working with kids.
So one of the questions I want to start out with is, we all know there's research, lots of research, that support that getting kids outside and learning in nature is very effective, and it is enriching in every possible way. And I think parents know that too, as well as educators. But in so many of our schools, even with the very youngest children, structured academics, sitting at desks doing worksheets, even with three and four year olds seems to be crowding out any outside time that the kids are getting.
So why is it important? Let's talk about that first. Why is it so important to get kids outside?
Rachel Larimore, PhD: Yeah, well, there's so many reasons. I mean, we know there's so many benefits. And I would say I mean, as you just suggested, we all know this. We all know we feel better. We feel more grounded and calmer and more just connected with each other. And we after we've spent time outside. Right. We know that because it's like, oh,I'm losing my mind. I need to go for a walk or, you know, we go out on the weekend to the park, you know, with our family. And it's like, oh, I feel so refreshed and just calmer. And the kids were just engrossed with play and, you know, they barely bothered me the whole picnic. Like they were just off doing their own thing.
Right? I mean, that's what parents would say. But we know, we inherently know the benefits of being outside. And yet we've had to kind of prove it because, as you said, as we've moved towards formal schooling, we've moved away from being outside. We moved away from play, first of all, which we I'm sure you talk about all the time in these podcasts.
But we've also moved away from the outdoors, which, by the way, it's very fitting you're doing this in April for Earth Month, right? I'm sure that was intentional. I mean, we know it, we know it, we know there's benefits, but now we are having to prove it a little bit. And I think that is because we're seeing this disconnect.
We're spending more time indoors. We're spending less time playing, first of all, and outdoor play in particular. We know being outside is good for our physical health. I mean, we could go on and on about physical health. But I'll do the highlights. So we know that even just being outside, having the natural daylight helps to prevent nearsightedness.
So we've seen this increase in myopia, which is the scientific term for nearsightedness. But being outdoors, our eyes need that natural light for, for eye development. We know you're going to have more vitamin D when you're outside in the sunlight, which also means that you're going to sleep better later, right? You've got melatonin production and then sleep and part of that circadian rhythms, I mean, I've now reached the age in life where it's all about like, how do I maximize sleep and how do I reduce stress and all of these things and everywhere you turn, it's, go outside and get morning sunlight, right?
Have time outdoors, move your body outside. We know that being outside is healthy for us. And I know most educators and parents, when you stop and think about that, it's like, oh yeah, of course children move more when they're outside than when they're in the classroom, right?
Like, that's not a big leap. But we had to prove that, we had to really measure that and say, oh yeah, they're more physically active. So they're just moving. Not to mention cleaner air actually outside compared to, you know, offgassing from carpets and paints and those kinds of things also just being in each other's space.
So those are physical benefits. But then we also know that cognitively, they're engaging all of their senses, so talk about science development. I mean, there's more opportunities to engage with natural phenomena and make sense of the world around them. In terms of science learning, we also know that children who spend time outside have fewer symptoms of ADHD, so they're able to focus more after having been outside.
So that has not only social emotional impacts but also cognitive impacts, right? That now I can self-regulate long enough to attend to the task that I'm being asked to in the classroom or by my parents or whatever the situation is, just because I spent some time outside. Also kind of related to that, let me just back up.
We talk about physical, cognitive and social emotional development in early childhood, as though these are separate buckets. But of course they're all integrated. Right? So I was just thinking about like socially and emotionally and the ability to calm ourselves and self-regulate and have reduction in stress, also has a physical component and views of like looking at a picture of nature not even being in it, but just looking at a picture of nature lowers heart rate and reduces blood pressure.
So imagine you're actually outside, right? But that goes back to the self-regulation and being able to calm ourselves and attend to tasks. So all of these pieces are all integrated and it really to me, sometimes it's heartbreaking that we've had to prove this, because for all of human history, we've been outside, right? Connecting with the natural world.
That's where we've learned. That's where we've grown. We are, like it or not, we're animals, right? We are biologically animals, and we have the same needs that other animals do from the natural world. So we have the benefit and the curse, perhaps, of having these big brains that were big enough to teach us, oh, we could build structures to keep the elements out, but by keeping the elements out, we have also disconnected from the things that we really need.
So, yes, it's nice that we're not in the rain and in the cold, and we've kind of made this nice, comfortable space for ourselves. But we're also missing out on the natural sunlight, you know, seeing the birds, even the sounds like I've been hearing some really cool studies on, like, the sounds of bird calls and in the springtime and the impact that has on plants and the fungi in the soil.
I mean, just really layers of knowledge about nature. We haven't even ventured into all that most certainly is impacting us as well that we haven't even we haven't even explored yet. So that is a really long winded answer to say nature matters, right? There are real benefits to being outside for us.
And I think if people don't want to dive into all of the literature and read scientific journals about all of it, I would just encourage everyone to think about yourself, think about the last time you went outside and had this nice like, oh, I feel better, you know, and sure that I'm sure the push back here will be well, it was really cold and I was kind of miserable. Okay, well then we have to dress differently, right? If you had geared up and had warmer coats and warmer hats and warmer mittens, then it's still refreshing and like, oh, that was still lovely because my physical needs have been met. So the same is true for kids. As long as we have dressed them appropriately for the weather, then they can absolutely have a positive experience outdoors in playing in the outdoors. That was a long answer.
Emily Garman: I visited a school and they said, there are no there's no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing.
Rachel Larimore, PhD: Yes, exactly. That's true. Although I will say I have nuanced that a little bit. I agree, I think that's helpful to get people out. I will say especially programs that's been almost all of their time outside, there is a point where you've been out for like the fifth day in 45 degree rainy weather. Then it's like, you know what? This is kind of annoying weather. I want to go back inside.
So there is a balance here. I think too often we use clothing, the lack of clothing as an excuse to not go out when really there's it's not bad weather. We could go out. Yeah.
Emily Garman: And I wonder how much of this is driven by parents. So I'm a parent and I visited another school when my child was pretty young there. There was another parent on the tour, and he was asking, well, how much homework would my first grader have? And I was thinking, oh my gosh, I can't even imagine my first grader having homework, what? I definitely don't want that, you know? But then I realized he was asking, I want my first grader to have lots of homework. I think for a lot of parents, we can identify worksheets or when our child brings home a graded paper, even if they're 5 or 6 years old, that is identifiable to us as learning.
So when you're outside playing, they're having this open ended play in nature. They are learning even just by picking flowers, or they're gaining fine motor skills by braiding grass or just looking at rocks or scooping up mud, whatever it is they're doing. But a parent sees that and says, well, my kid's not learning. I'm not getting the education I am paying for her to have. And we're missing the importance of just playing outside.
Rachel Larimore, PhD: Absolutely. And I think, I mean, those those parents are well-meaning, right? That the intention is, almost all parents everywhere, anywhere in the world is, I want my child to be normal. I want them to fit in, and I want them to succeed and be healthy and happy and all of those things, whatever that is, however we define that.
Right. And it's sort of, this is what we all want for our kids. And so if a lot of parents, they arrive to education knowing that, I sat and was taught things right and I recited things back, and these are the facts I know and a lot of us don't remember, especially actually parents today didn't experience kindergarten.
That was just play. You know, my kindergarten looked like preschools. We had centers and we played all day. And in fact, we didn't play all day. We played half day at kindergarten. We didn't even have a full day kindergarten.
So the expectations of what school looks like, and it's, it's easier to wrap your mind around a worksheet that shows kind of the facts and the outcomes, right? Especially cognitively. It's hard to see it in play, especially if you're not trained to watch play and notice, oh wow, look at how they're interacting with one another. Look at all that problem solving they're doing right now. Or like you mentioned, fine motor, right? Oh, this is fine motor skills versus gross motor. And look at how they're crossing the midline. And that's so good for their brain. And all this work, most of us start thinking that way when we're watching play.
And that's where I really encourage early childhood educators to get really good at naming the learning that's happening in play, and being able to talk about, yes, they're jumping in a puddle, but wow, look at all that balance. You know, now the balance and coordination that they're doing. Listen to them talk about how big the splash was. And oh, it went farther. Or, you know, this one was bigger or smaller. And they're comparing sizes.
They're getting out rulers and measuring it like, wow, look at all that math just happened. Right. And then oh, all the water moves, it all went away. Well that's displacement right? We might not be using that language yet at 3 or 4, but they're experimenting with that. And they're saying how can I make the splash go bigger.
And they're testing ideas. So being able to name that learning that's happening in play, I think is really important for us as educators to be able to essentially teach parents like, no, really, this is good for kids. And here's how it's good for kids. And that does require also some advocacy work. I mean, essentially what we're asking is educators to be advocates for children and to push back on some of that and say, you know what? It isn't developmentally appropriate to have kindergarteners sit and do worksheets all day. And yet here they are. Or to skip recess. I mean, a lot of kindergartners don't even have recess. Maybe they have a 15 20 minute lunch break, but that's that's asking a lot. Where, you know, brain development hasn't changed that much. I am older, but our evolutionary brain development from when I was 5, to 5 year olds today has not changed at that rate.
So I totally understand how parents come with that expectation. And it is absolutely from a great place of, I just want the best for my kid, right? I don't want them to be behind in whatever imaginary race we're on. And so I understand that and that's where I think we have to, as educators, really say this is what is happening in play and why it's good for children.
And and being able to name the learning and help parents to see that, which takes work. It's not like it just happens, right? I mean, it has to be really intentional.
Emily Garman: You have written two books with Gryphon House, you also are a consultant, and you work with schools who are starting to incorporate outdoor learning in their programs or want to start schools that are entirely nature-based. Can you draw on some of that experience to talk to educators who want to do more of this?
They know it's the right thing to do. They know the kids like it, but they're facing financial constraints. They just don't know how to do it. They don't know what to do. They don't know how to fit it in the day. And I think maybe part of that, at least when I'm talking about that with educators, it involves this whole idea of loose parts in particular.
It isn't a thing like, well, you need to buy this $4,000 piece of furniture. You need this center or all these materials. You just go outside and you have what's there.
Rachel Larimore, PhD: Yeah, the beautiful thing is nature's cheap, right? And it's everywhere. And I get frustrated sometimes when people start buying pinecones and different things online. And having them shipped across the country. For a couple reasons. One, because nature's cheap, just go outside. But also, we want kids to experience the nature that's local to your place.
So, people love the giant pine cones, the sequoia pine cones that get shipped in here to Michigan. We don't have pine cones that big. And it's fine if we're doing a comparison and, you know, that sort of contrast. But if that's all you have, let's talk about what's happening locally here.
And so that's the beauty of natural loose parts, but loose parts in general, which really are about encouraging play, whether it's inside or outside in loose parts or these open ended materials that can be used in lots of different ways. So they don't just have one purpose. We’ve trended lately towards more toys that have one particular purpose, but loose parts, I mean, whether it's natural loose parts like acorns and pine cones and leaves and logs and sticks and rocks, or manufactured loose parts like buckets and shovels and ropes and sheets and tarps and things to build with.
All of those have lots of different ways that can be used. So children's imagination can really come in and thrive or lose parts. And then I know, a recent Gryphon House book, Loose Parts Alive, right. Talking about some of these other things that we don't often think about with loose parts, but, dead things, I love dead things, by the way. All about dead things in nature, learning and outdoor learning. Because there's just there's so much to talk about with that. But those are also a different kind of loose part. That's definitely one for folks to check out. But there's lots of different ways to think about loose parts, and I think that's a great place to start.
A lot of people find themselves for whatever reason, just sort of challenged by where do I begin? By bringing outdoor learning into my program, whether that's in the indoor classroom or outside; how do I get started? And so, as you said, loose parts are a great way to start that and even start inside. What if we just, that's accessible to most staff, to children. That's what they're used to. Right. So it's like, all right, we'll bring more natural materials into the classroom. Maybe we're going to have corn in the fall. Right? We have corn on the ears that we can pop off and play with in the sensory table.
Or we bring in a bunch of rocks and have things buried in the rocks. So we can bring those natural materials in. We can also think about the materials we already have in a typical early childhood classroom that could more directly relate to nature and our local nature. So your dramatic play area, for example, are there dress up materials that are animals that children could dress up and pretend to be animals, or could they dress up and pretend to be a birder or a veterinarian, or for other things that sort of connect to the natural world in some way?
In the books in the Library, thinking about your books, are there informational texts about local nature? That's right here. And yes, some far off is okay as well. But we also want to really remember what is happening where I am in the world. Like you're in Oklahoma, I'm in Michigan. We have very different nature things happening right now, right?
Like birds that had been where you are, are just now making their way to my house; we just start experiencing different things. And so making sure that we're also staying local when we're thinking about materials. But books are a great way to do that. Bringing in other sort of representations of nature in the classroom to show and reflect the natural world inside as well.
And then that's usually where people start. But then the next step is thinking about the outdoor play area. And are there ways to include more loose parts in that space and have it shift more towards a natural play area, which I think of the difference, from a playground and a natural play area as the play will be different at different times of the year.
So the seasons should directly impact the kind of play that's available in those spaces. So we see a lot of playgrounds now that are trying to be more nature-based, which is great, but it ends up being like wooden playground structures, which is a little different than natural loose parts that you can manipulate and play with.
And also the plants and animals that are there in that space at this time of the year, and precipitation. So our snow is melted. Now we have mud.
So a lot of programs will start with a playground, how do I bring some loose parts in and then eventually maybe okay, how do we change our elements here? So it's less about physical play and more of all of the other kind of play. Creative artistic play, dramatic play, construction, risky play. I mean, there's all sorts of other types that can happen in those outdoor spaces.
But before people even get there, it's also just spending a little more time outside. Like how long are you in out? Normally now it's 20 minutes. What about tomorrow? You do 25, right? And then next week we try to aim for 30. Right. And then most states anymore. 30 is actually the minimum for licensing. I think a lot of licensing, state licensing rules say unless the weather is dangerous or extreme heat or cold.
But honestly, most programs anymore are less than 30. So even if we could just aim for everyone being outside for 30 minutes. So those are some ways to think about bringing nature inside. Start there and then, okay, how do we do more outside? And then eventually if you really want to get wild and get into the outdoor play, and leave the fence and to go into what I call the beyond the area, “beyond the fence,” which is, of course, the title of my book through one of my books with Gryphon House, which is Preschool Beyond Walls.
So that's where that comes from. So that's that's sort of the eventual, you know, goal, perhaps. But don't worry about starting there. Start where you are and do the little bits, of connections to nature as you can. And it's amazing how that will snowball and become a big impact and big change over time.
Emily Garman: Yeah. You've you've addressed a lot there too, because it isn't just a financial constraint. It's sometimes resistance from our admin or the policies of the institution. Childcare centers are different than schools, and they have different rules about things. It seems like, I know when when we were kids, we were playing in vacant lots and riding our bikes around from dawn to dusk and nobody knew where we were. But now parents are concerned about this thing called safety and they're really concerned about their child getting hurt.
Rachel Larimore, PhD: Yeah. We're the bitter Gen-X, aren't we?
Emily Garman: You know, we came home and let ourselves in, made some macaroni and cheese, right? Exactly.
Rachel Larimore, PhD: After our half day kindergarten.
Emily Garman: My daughter, she asked me, did you play in the sewers as a kid? And no, I didn't play in the sewers. What? Why would you say that? Oh, I played in the storm drains. Sure. That's different than the sewer!
Rachel Larimore, PhD: Yeah, exactly. That's better. It's the sewer. That's different. Yeah. Love it. So.
Emily Garman: Yeah, I mean, this this is a way for teachers, educators, caregivers to just start small and and not to think they've got to change the world right away. But it will make a difference in just their mindset too, I think. And what about folks in, you know, and I'm in Oklahoma, you're in Minnesota. We have the luxury of large amounts of space. You know, some, we have yards and we have playgrounds at our schools. But in urban areas, they may really not be anywhere that they could find a forest or a place with anything other than gravel and a few trees and plants. Okay. Maybe talk a little bit about how how people in urban settings can do this.
Rachel Larimore, PhD: Yeah. I think the first thing is just to reimagine what you are thinking of when it comes to nature. Like often when I hear people say or I ask people, what do you think of when I say nature? You're thinking of wide open spaces, and there aren't many people around. It's more wild, right? But the fact is, nature is everywhere, even in urban spaces.
We actually heard this during Covid. I know this has been a while now, but in New York, the New Yorkers were noticing how loud the birds were during Covid because there weren’t cars on the street honking, and there weren't people out talking and yelling and carrying on. Right. The birds weren't any louder than normal. They just now could hear them.
So the birds have been thriving on the sides of buildings and raising young for generations. And there's plants around. And so there is a lot more nature than we realize or acknowledge. There are some really cool studies. I'll try not to nerd out on all this for you, but some really cool studies in Chicago of the coyote populations.
And they have figured out the coyotes have figured out how to cross the highway based on rush hour times. And then when all the people have gone away. And so we as humans love to think that we've built these cities and we've pushed all the animals out. We don't have to worry about them. No, they just learned how to adapt to us.
Because we're not the smart ones. We have bigger brains, but we're clueless sometimes on these things. So some really cool studies on urban nature. But the fact is, nature is there, and there are parks and there are little courtyards and sort of nooks and crannies of natural spaces and as a result of there being less open space, there's actually more biodiversity and more, you know, interesting events happening.
And to say, you know, I don't know how to say it, but there's just more happening in those spaces, right? There's more animals raising their young, there's more plants, probably per, you know, foot in that space than there are in other places compared to even more open spaces like in my neighborhood. Right. So, just first and foremost is, okay, let go of what we think counts as nature, because I hear that a lot from urban educators. ‘Oh, we don't have nature. You do have nature. And actually really interesting nature. And in some ways even more fascinating, I think, because it's like these animals have adapted, these plants have adapted to live in this space that I never would have expected. So there's that. First of all. And then I think it's also getting creative about where is nature in larger spaces, where are places we could visit?
I've seen programs that they have drop off at the local park, and then they walk to school after they've had outdoor time or the other way around. Or they walk both ways, depending on how close it is. Right. I've seen other programs that will then have a bus and they will actually just transport kids to a different park that's a little further away, but there's a bigger space
So, you know, taking advantage of some of those green spaces. And there are definitely have been some cities that are better about it than others, but there has definitely been a movement for green space and and trails and pathways in communities because we know that that's good for quality of life, which back to your very beginning question of how is nature good for us?
I mean, we know it in so many different ways in our lives, right? We know that, it's just a community is happier and healthier if they have green space around. So finding those spaces that you could go and visit, maybe it's even to start with, it's a few times a year. You go to a local nature center or go to the park, like a a state or national park that you're visiting on some sort of regular basis.
But so maybe it's not every day to begin with, but you find ways to access that. And again, thinking about what nature is here and how do we also, in our outdoor play areas, create habitat for plants and animals that we might not normally have thought of in our outdoor space? Do we have some bird boxes and bird feeders around, or even if it's outside the play area, but that we can see right?
Do we have, planter boxes with wildflowers that are just blooming and flourishing? So then the insects and butterflies, you know, all that, all the different insects, including butterflies, can come and visit. Right. And we can see so sometimes it's also thinking about how do we create mini habitats within that urban space. Because again, it's so concentrated that those plants and animals are wanting the space.
And so if we provide it, if you build it, they will come. Right. Is that how that works or you hope anyway?
Emily Garman: I think so much of what you have said in terms of advice for educators looking to integrate this more in their curriculum, also applies to parents wherever they live who are thinking, oh, I really need to get my children outside more. We need to do more stuff outside as a family. Let's get off our screens a little bit more, and you've given a lot of suggestions that certainly apply to home life as well as school life. So I think that's really valuable.
Rachel Larimore, PhD: Yeah. So those little I mean, having a bird feeder right outside your back door that you can watch from your dining room table. In fact, I have a bird box that I put up just a couple weeks ago because the bluebirds were harassing me. They were looking at me within the light like we need a bird box. So I put a new bird box over.
But I could see that right out the window. I know they're mean, aren't they? I had a cardinal last year because we were in a drought and a cardinal that was really scolding me one day, and I couldn't figure out why. And then it was on the dog bowl, like the dog's water dish. And I realized it was telling me that the water was too low and I needed to fill it.
So I put that water in. That cardinal was much happier after that. So talk about, how animals can communicate. I got the message. All right.
Emily Garman: So tell me some more about Samara Early Learning, the company that you've created. And it sounds like just a dream job. Really. So what do you do there?
Rachel Larimore, PhD: Yeah. It is. It is a dream job. I love it. So I work with early childhood educators who are either wanting to start a brand new school from scratch, so basically the business side of things, but then eventually have it be a nature-based program or programs that already have a school running and they want to integrate nature into that curriculum.
And I mostly work with schools, everyone. So I work with families, or like parent support groups or, you know, playgroup kinds of things. But most of my work is with early childhood educators from zero up to to third grade, most of it in that pre-K world. Because of some of the constraints we've already talked about in terms of pressures on academic outcomes and so forth.
But I am really pleased to say that there are more and more educators in the elementary level that are really being intentional about bringing nature into their teaching and having outdoor time and advocating for recess and finding ways to articulate to both administrators and families that they're learning when we're out here and this is good for children when we're outside.
So most of my work is is younger, but absolutely, there's work happening at the elementary level. And I do work with with those K-3 groups as well. But I'm all over the country and world even anymore. Lots of it. Virtual professional development workshops, some consulting with administrators from policies to figure out how do we do this safely? How do we ensure that we have the policies in place to take kids out into the woods? And, okay, what if they want to climb trees, what's our boundaries on that? How do we limit that and do that safely? So, that's the work that I do. And then of course, part of that is writing some books.
So I've got a couple books with Gryphon House, Preschool Beyond Walls, which is really more like framing the curriculum in ways to think about how to bring nature in. So we talked earlier about bringing nature into the inside and the outside and the beyond. And so we go through that in that book.
And then the most recent one was Evaluating Natureness, which is more of a program assessment. So sorry for parents that are listening. This isn't quite as parent-focused, but for programs, from pre-K through third grade that want to evaluate how nature are we are we being intentional about nature in our teaching? And it's essentially a rating scale to evaluate all the different ways that we could bring nature into the classroom, from the materials in the physical environment to what kinds of activities were leading to our program goals, staff training, so forth.
Emily Garman: So does that evaluation then lead to recommendations? Or what's kind of the outcome from those evaluations.
Rachel Larimore, PhD: Yeah. So I mean, a lot of people are using it now as sort of a self-assessment of, hey, I want to be nature based and where do I even start? And I always say, well, start with where you are. So the first thing is you have to figure out, where are we? What are we doing already, and how do we build on that.
So it is a great self-assessment, to just check where we are right now. I've also seen programs who are using it at the beginning of starting this nature journey. Like, okay, we want to be more outdoors. We want to be nature based. Let's measure where we are now. And then at the end of the year, let's check in and see how have we grown and changed over that year.
So just again, as a self-assessment measure, we are seeing a few states that are thinking about it in terms of quality rating improvement systems. Right. We know there's all these different tools that states are using for quality rating improvement. And so especially challenging are these programs that are nature based and really outdoors outside all day or most of the day, don't really have an indoor space that would be reviewed in some of those other measures.
So some are considering this as sort of an alternative pathway to evaluate nature based programs. Like you, you know, you meet the same standards to a point, and then it's like, well, now it doesn't really fit. So we'll use this Evaluating Natureness, which is actually NABERS is the tool itself within the Evaluating Natureness. So that's those are probably the biggest ways there is to get a score, but I'm always hesitant. Like that's just a number, right? It's not really what it's about. The idea is, it's a reflection tool of, okay, where are opportunities to build on what we're already doing well and opportunities to continue to grow? And really be intentional about using nature as a teacher.
Emily Garman: So given that our audience here on the podcast does run the gamut: parents, but also it's early childhood educators, school administrators, childcare center administrators, things like that. So is there anything that you would like to include that I have not asked you or that I have not covered that we need to talk about?
Rachel Larimore, PhD: I will say, I think for any program, especially programs, early childhood programs that are thinking about really being intentional about nature in your curriculum, I would first just get really clear about why do you want to do this? Like what's driving that? If it's just because it seems to be popular right now, it's probably not going to be effective.
You're probably going to struggle to make the change. But if you can be really clear about why does this matter for our program, that we want to do this and make sure everyone on the team knows that, and then also think about what are we already doing well and how can we keep doing that and know we're doing it right, being intentional about continuing and then also build on that, like, you know, we're already going outside every day, even in the rain. Great.
Can we go out ten minutes longer than we used to? Right. 15 minutes longer. Can we continue to do that? Or, you know, we're outside every day in the in no matter the weather. Is there a way we could go beyond the fence? Like, do we have spaces, right. Thinking about what are we already doing? What are opportunities to expand?
But the foundation is to really get clear about why this matters. For your program, your mission, your pedagogical philosophy. How do you think children should be learning, and make sure that everyone on the team knows that because I do see programs that start this, like one person's really excited and then others are like, oh, I don't like the cold, I don't really want to go out, and so people aren't clear about why it matters. So it's easy to get hung up on the barriers and those challenges.
Emily Garman: Well, thank you so much, Rachel. It's been really just a pleasure talking to you, and I hope we get to do it again soon and talk about some more nature stuff, because we've got spring and summer ahead of us. So, yeah.
Rachel Larimore, PhD: I love it. Thanks for having me. It's been fun.
