In this episode, we are joined by Dr. Lea Ann Christenson and Jenny James, coauthors of Dig In: Outdoor STEM Learning for Young Children. Together, they make the case that outdoor education isn't a luxury—it's a necessity.
Lea Ann and Jenny share how nature-based learning supports whole-child development, fosters deeper engagement, and offers rich, differentiated opportunities for every type of learner. Drawing on their own experiences as an early childhood professor and a preschool director, they describe the inspiration behind their book, the research that grounds it, and the practical steps educators can take to create vibrant outdoor classrooms.
You’ll hear how their journey—from pandemic-era innovation to a fully developed outdoor curriculum—has transformed how they think about teaching and learning. Along the way, they challenge the traditional view of what school “should” look like and offer a compelling vision for how nature-rich environments nurture curiosity, problem-solving, and joy.
Interview TranscriptThe following is a lightly edited transcript of our interview.
Emily Garman: Welcome to Early Childhood Chapters. Today we're joined by Dr. Lea Ann Christenson and Jenny James, coauthors of Dig in: Outdoor STEM learning for Young Children. In this episode, we explore why outdoor education isn't just a nice to have; it's essential. Lea Ann and Jenny share why nature-rich learning matters, how it supports all kinds of learners, and what schools and teachers can do to make it part of everyday practice.
If you're looking for practical inspiration and fresh ideas, you're in the right place.
Lea Ann and Jenny. Welcome to the Early Childhood Chapters podcast. Why don't you introduce yourselves a little bit? Jenny, you can go first and then tell us about how you came to write this book together. Your book you have with Gryphon House is called Dig In: Outdoor STEM learning with Young children. And that's what we're going to be talking about today.
So tell us who you are and how you came to write this book together.
Jenny James, MA: Well, my name is Jenny James. Thank you so much for having us. I've been working in early childhood for many years now, most recently as a preschool director. And I'm just so proud of this book that Lea Ann and I have written together. And I'll let her introduce herself. And then maybe we could talk about, how we came upon this project.
Lea Ann Christenson, PhD: Yeah. I'm Dr. Lea Ann Christenson. I am a professor of early childhood education at Towson University, which is in Maryland, but I'm a former kindergarten teacher from California, actually. Jenny and I both met in Maryland, but we are both from California. And how we came to write this book is, as Jenny said, she's the director, and I'm the former kindergarten teacher and current professor.
And in our travels out and about, throughout our careers, we know that children need to be exploring and solving problems and discovering. And we were concerned about the movement of over the last, probably 20 years of young children sitting in desks and it kind of turning into first grade, then working on worksheets. And, we ground our work in the research and developmental theory around Piaget.
And that practice of sitting in chairs for four year olds just didn't make any sense. So, we were also very entranced with, science and STEM education because we thought, you know, that's an important thing. We want our kids to be ready for. It doesn't matter what career you might have someday. Children need to have a skill set in STEM (science, technology, engineering and math.)
And we started thinking about how those how STEM, what might connect to young children and the outdoors actually is the natural connection to that. And, Jenny, why don't you describe what you have going on at your school?
Jenny James, MA: Sure. So before we started on the book, we were in the middle of Covid and, the school was trying to figure out how we could remain open. And, so we did have a task force, our preschool board met, just to kind of try to figure this thing out. And we stayed closed for quite a while.
I think we were closed for about a year. But within that year, we started our research on outdoor learning and the possibility of having a classroom that was outside. At first we thought that perhaps then we could invite people to come back and it would be a safer environment and so forth. But it did start us off into this whole other way of thinking about how kids learn and what kids need to learn.
I think we had been sold on the idea that they need to be indoors with certain activities and so forth, and it just kind of broadened our thinking to be to think that, well, if they're safe outside, what, you know, what are they going to be learning when they're outside? So, originally we were going to write the book about how to start your own outdoor classroom. And then it just kind of evolved into a little bit more of a deeper analysis of how teachers can present this material and a lot of theory behind how kids learn. That's pretty much what we really needed to look at in order to convince ourselves that this was going to be a good move, for the preschool.
Lea Ann Christenson, PhD: And as we dug in. Pun intended. Yes, we discovered that, wait, stop. This isn't a whole brand new thing. This being outdoors or discovering hands on learning this isn't a new thing. Teachers have been working this way forever. As long as there's been preschools and groups of little children. Actually, as long as there's been groups, little children without adults, they've been investigating.
They've been solving problems. They do that in indoor settings and block areas and where there's loose parts and materials. Art centers, they're just there creating problems and discovering. But this is moving it to the outdoors. And I had happened to spend some time in Denmark and Norway looking at their outdoor education systems where they're outdoors year round.
They have their saying, there's no bad weather, you know, just bad clothes or, you just need the right clothes to go outdoors. So to me, I went, wait, stop. People are already doing this. So what we did is we put the theory together with the practice and showed people how you just do a little tiny pivot on it and it turns into more, I want to say higher order thinking skills, that you're working on.
And it helps people that don't understand child development and what's good for young children, it helps them kind of label what the kids are doing in a way that they respect a little bit more. It’s sad that they have to do that. But, it's it just shows people the gravitas of what young children are doing. They're the original scientists.
And then sometimes you bring them in classroom settings and we extinguish that.
Emily Garman: So and I think maybe that is the issue, because I know when I have thought about this a lot, I keep thinking, why do we do this? Why do we put little kids inside at desks, set them down, put pencils in their hands before it's developmentally appropriate for them to do that. And maybe it's because we, or the people who are making those decisions, don't understand.
We're just thinking, well, this is what school looks like. This is what an academic experience looks like. And maybe parents are wanting what looks right to them. Hey, I'm paying my money for this preschool or I'm paying my money for this private school. You know, get my kid doing the times tables when they're four. Right? But it's not developmentally appropriate.
Whereas these kinds of experiences, you've talked so much to me about just that open-ended, free time to explore that so much learning occurs there. But maybe we don't recognize it as laypeople.
Jenny James, MA: Yes. I think that's a big problem. You know, teachers, there's a reason why we want to be teachers. And we and I think some of us are kind of control freaks, and we like to be able to tell people what to do. So it kind of goes against that nature to, you know, want to control the situation when you are allowing children to explore on their own.
And so it takes a kind of a special kind of creative thinker as a teacher to see what they're learning and expand on that. And so you're taking a curriculum that you might be given and you're thinking outside of the box, you're learning the standards and what your children need to know.
But then you're seeing you're observing them and you're seeing them accomplish those, you know, meet those standards, without maybe all of the paper, pencil work. So the thing that might be keeping people from doing it also is, well, here's that worksheet that we did that proves that they know this, where we're really suggesting to take pictures, write anecdotal notes. It's a lot of observation, and a lot of kind of analyzing the behaviors that you're seeing. So in some ways it it's harder, but then what you're finding is you're looking at a much richer experience because doing a worksheet, that might tell you that they can't really grasp a pencil too well, and they need more time with Play-Doh, but you could also just do that by just using the plate and skip that first part.
Emily Garman: But the fact that it is harder, it is more difficult, it is more work for a teacher. So you're going to need a teacher who can do those observations and create analysis.
Lea Ann Christenson, PhD: You know, it's it's more work, but it's not. I was recently observing at a preschool that had an outdoor environment, and I was using, a scale that I was supposed to rate the, the discipline, the discipline that the teachers were engaged in. Well, this was a couple months into the school year. So the children knew each other.
They knew the teachers. I had no data to record, because the children were not misbehaving. They were all engaged in playful learning. They were discovering, the teachers were talking to the children and guiding the children. So in some ways, maybe it's more work, but then the payoff down the road is you don't have to keep telling a child, sit down, put your bottom in the seat, right?
It's just this…how do I want to say this? I'm so glad I had to look for that, because I'd never thought of that before. I never noticed it. Right. But then when I had this rubric that said, “how many times were the children disciplined?” and I had zero? It was so cool. So it may be more work in the end, but you're going to have more rigorous learning and you're going to have a greater sense of community. And it helps differentiate for all children, across all abilities, across different languages. The children might speak, I'm thinking children with special needs and different needs around development. It serves everybody really well. You can differentiate and meet everybody so you can serve all children.
Jenny James, MA: I was just going to add that, it's much more interesting as a teacher, to teach in that environment, where you're not relying on “what page am I on in the curriculum and what worksheet do I have to copy?” I think it's just such a joy.
It brings joy back to the profession. We've heard of so many teachers just burning out, because it's not exciting to be doing some of those things that we're asking of them. And, when you really get down to developing these relationships with children that you learned to know so well over the course of the year and their families and you can see the growth, that's really where you get a lot of the joy of teaching.
So, we see it every day in our outdoor classroom. It's the difference between we also have the traditional playground, and the difference between those two areas, it's just amazing the behavior of those children, the same children with the same teachers is so much different in that outdoor classroom. Granted, it is a larger space.
But it's much more open ended. They have a lot of freedom. And they had the same amount of freedom on a regular playground. However, there's just there's more fighting. It's just a whole different scenario. And I think part of it is, is because the way the playground is designed, you know, there's a slide, there's steps up to the slide, there's a bridge, there's just it's prescribed. You know what you're “supposed” to do with it. But in the outdoor classroom, a log can become a refrigerator or whatever the imagination desires. So there's just a lot more creative thinking going on in that space.
Emily Garman: You have talked a lot about rich environments really making a difference. And I know that that's something Maria Montessori talked about, too, preparing the environment and giving the children a much richer context to operate in. And that's something you talked about in your book, too, that I wanted to address here, because it's really fascinating to me whether the child is indoors or outdoors.
This idea of a schema that came from Jean Piaget about the context where children are learning things and how that adds so much to just how well they learn it, how they retain it, how they'll remember it later. And it all contributes to their body of knowledge, which makes them the humans, and that's so interesting to me. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit about that, particularly regarding being outdoors, doing outdoor education.
Lea Ann Christenson, PhD: I'll talk a little bit about schemas, and then you give examples of what it looks like in your outdoor environment. Better readers: that’s our goal. Jenny and I want to have better readers. We want to have at-grade level readers by third grade who are independent readers. So that that's the end goal for of all of this.
Right. And I think that's the end goal for everybody who's in education because, an on-grade level reader, they're going to be confident they can do their own learning. They're good. Right. So part of reading is being able to comprehend, and to comprehend, you need to have an understanding of the world and have knowledge to bring to what you're reading.
Because if you don't know what it's about at all, you can't comprehend it. I have this great passage I read with my undergraduates. It's about surfing, and it doesn't ever say the word surfing, but it has all these terms in it that if you don't know about surfing, you're like, what the heck are they talking about? The minute I say it surfing, they go, oh, “hang right” means that this and that and a schema pops in their head.
They've seen surf movies. They probably haven't surfed themselves, but all of a sudden they go, oh, those words meant a wave and a surfboard. And so what we do with young children in our teaching is facilitate them to learn schemas about the world. So based on children's interests or what happens to be in the curriculum, you do units of study, for instance, you do plants and you learn what roots are and stems are and flowers and photosynthesis.
And once you own that knowledge, you bring that to what you're reading and you can comprehend and understand. One more thing about hands on learning, when many children work English as a second language for them, if you engage them in this hands on learning and say you're learning about the life cycle of the butterfly and you've done it in a very hands on way, perhaps you grew the butterflies in your classroom and they went flying away.
You might not understand all the vocabulary, but you understand what happened. And once you do pick up the English vocabulary, you have the knowledge. You own it because you did it with your hands through hands on learning. And I bet we could spend another hour citing all, you know, Maria Montessori, the Reggio schools. We could go on and on and on. It's all about hands on learning. So Jenny is going to give you some examples of her outdoor place that what it looks like.
Jenny James, MA: Well, you know, it, it fits perfectly, into what we've been talking about this spring because we have forsythia bushes in our outdoor classroom. And so, you know, all winter long, they're just sticks basically, and then, one of the teachers brought some of the sticks in and put them in water, and kind of forced the buds to open.
And so that was their first inkling in what was going to happen as spring approached. And now we've got full blooms and these bright yellow forsythia bushes, all of the children know the name of those bushes, that they're forsythia. They know, what they look like if they ever read a story where they see the word forsythia, they're going to know that's a flower.
That and they're going to know something about it. But it's not always yellow; that after those bulbs fall off, it's going to be green. So there's, there's just so much to be said with those kinds of experiences when they get into school, even something like interpreting poetry, those are the vocabulary words that they're going to get.
They're going to get a deeper meaning into, you know, what they're reading. We also had hyacinths in the garden, and to see those come up and the beautiful flowers and the aroma, you know, the teachers were saying, oh, they smell so good. Let's not pick these. Smell them and see what they smell like to you.
So those kinds of things are all developing their schema of flowers, and then the teachers actually had them paint forsythia branches and then, took tissue paper and yellow tissue paper and put the blossoms on as kind of one of their art projects, just to kind of have some fun way to remember the vocabulary word and express what they've learned.
So there's ways to bring the outdoors into your classroom as well. We had parents come in at the end of the unit, they come in and kind of see some of the activities that the children have been working on and more than one parent said, oh these vocabulary words! Now they're telling me what they see when we're driving and they say, that's forsythia and so forth.
So, they take so much pride in what they're learning when they're a part of it, and I don't think you see that as much as if they haven't actually experienced it themselves.
Lea Ann Christenson, PhD: And that home to school connection, is so important. And when you have engaging activities like that, the children, I've done a couple small scale studies around just this, that when you embrace this kind of methodology and teaching around thematic units, the children bring much more home, and there's richer oral language experiences. And that's the foundation of literacy, the foundation of, our reading and writing is all oral language.
So the more that we can be engaged in oral language activities, not just formal rote memorization of a poem or something, but actually authentically using the vocabulary words that we we've acquired, with others is is very important in our development. And I think that helps families because they don't necessarily know what it looks like for school readiness.
Right. And some of it's just having beautiful, rich conversations. And then, carrying forward themes that might be happening in the preschool outdoors and, and engaging in those themselves.
Emily Garman: The natural world provides so much opportunity for that. I remember hearing that when my daughter was an infant and knowing that I just needed to talk to her a lot, and we needed to have conversations, and I needed to use the regular words that I would normally use. And sometimes I'm not very talkative. But if we went outside, there was always plenty to talk about and I could describe things to her.
Lea Ann Christenson, PhD: And then you're less likely to be perhaps in front of screens like we all are. And the research is developing on that. How has that impacted young children's, you know, development and their literacy acquisition? Actually, every day I'm reading about how test scores are down, and I just ponder I don't know for sure, but I just ponder is that because kids are spending more time on screens?
And yes, they could be watching an educational program, but that's just trasmitted. They're just taking in the information. What we're talking about, outdoors or indoors, having these beautiful conversations, it's two ways; the person who knows a little bit more because it could be an older sibling or older, you know, neighbor. They’re scaffolding the kids forward in their in their information, in what they know and helping them further develop that vocabulary. So if we don't have those experiences and then we get to school…That's school readiness. Just talking.
Emily Garman: So this this segues really nicely into what I wanted to ask about next, which is the idea that we only have so much time to spend in the day, and kids only have so much time at school and we are spending more time on screens of all of us, of all ages. And you use in your book you have this quote from Jean-Jacques Rousseau, and this was from the 1700s. And he said, “the most important and most useful rule in education is not to save time, but to waste it.” And I thought this was so interesting because we're always seeing how much more we can pack in the day, how much more we can do. And so this idea to say to an educator, just let your kids go outside and walk around and look at things for an hour or 30 minutes, I mean, that's inconceivable to some educators, but how much good comes out of that?
Even just if the child gets bored, that's great. Screens keep us from ever having our minds be idle. They're always taking up our attention and our kids’ attention, and it's good to just be outside and be bored and just looking at leaves or something. That's really where good learning takes place, especially for little bitty kids. I love that you use that quote.
Jenny James, MA: Right? And I love it too. I mean, especially for early childhood, you need to have those moments where you're not rushing and saving time. And, because that's where the learning happens when you get to practice things over and over again, because you just like to do it, and you're getting a good feeling from being able to accomplish something new.
I just saw today, there was a little boy who was very fearful of climbing on any of the logs that we have out there. And would always ask for our hand and everything, and now he's doing it all on his own, he's jumping off of them. He's so confident. And it's because he had the time; we were rushing. We weren't trying to move it on to the next thing. We weren't like, you all ,you have to learn to balance here because we're going to be testing on this thing with two weeks. And if everyone doesn't know how to do this, it's going to look bad. And so they're just giving everyone that time to hone in on this skill that that they are feeling good about. I mean, I think that's just so important.
Lea Ann Christenson, PhD: And it and there's this focus right now, rightly so, on social emotional learning. But sometimes that turns into, oh, let's read this book. The rabbit was sad, now the rabbit's happy. And that can be okay. I don't discredit that entirely, but what Jenny just described that experience. Talk about social emotional learning. Talk about self-efficacy. How did that child feel at the beginning, he was scared and worried.
The teachers facilitated him to work through that problem. And he came out being able to do it. So just think about how good he feels about himself in a in a very authentic way, not a cheesy or with your sticker because you're cute and nice and we had a good day, right? I couldn't do this before.
I was scared. I can do it now. I'll do it tomorrow. Think of the power in that.
Emily Garman: And what else can I do? I might be good at other things. Yeah.
Lea Ann Christenson, PhD: Exactly. And that's what that does for young children being outdoors. They're in an environment where they have more problems to figure out, developmentally appropriate problems to figure out and can develop SEL (social-emotional learning). And then, any time I'm visiting, just the sense of community and kids working together and, cooperating together.
And because that's kind of, a foundational principle in preschool. Right. For the first time, lots of different people are coming together. And how do we build community outdoors? It's like a natural, natural place where kids find problems to solve. Jenny, why don't you talk about that? One day you had with the kids in the log.
Jenny James, MA: We had noticed across the street they were taking down a very large tree. And Lea Ann actually happened to be there on that day observing and so the kids got to watch that whole, business of watching the guys climb up the top of the tree with their harnesses, then they had a big crane that they were using and the pulleys and levers and all of those simple machines that we try to manufacture when we're doing those lessons.
But this was just right out there in front of us. And it was really cool. It didn't get everyone's interest, but the kids that, you know, were drawn to it were allowed to watch the whole tree come down. And so then, as many directors do when we see a bargain or a free item that we can add to our school, I walked across and I said, would it be okay if we have one of these logs for our outdoor classroom?
And they were so nice about it. And it wasn't anything anyone could move themselves. They had to have equipment. They had their front loader and moved it over for us. And so the kids weren't there when we got the big log. But then the next day they went and they saw that and they were so excited, and they wanted to see if they could move it.
And, you know, we knew how heavy it was because they had to have a front loader loader move it in. And and so the teacher said, you know, well, we can see! And they had one try to push and of course it didn't do anything. So well, maybe if we all get to one side and push, it will roll. And the teacher and myself included did not think this thing was going to budge.
But with all of them behind it, it actually did roll. We were so shocked and the delight on their faces. It was so cool. And I have a video of it and I just think, man, that's something. They're going to go home and talk about. It's just such a fun memory, even for me to even think about, because it was unexpected. We just we did not expect 14 four year olds to be able to move this log.
Emily Garman: And how do educators learn to look for these opportunities? I mean, I would say you're an experienced educator. You know how to not only see opportunities like that, but when you're talking about what happened, you're able to translate that into phrases like social emotional learning and, reading readiness and the things that we want for this age group because you have that experience and that background.
But how can new teachers or people who are are just starting out? How do you train yourself to to see these opportunities and see how they do translate into those skills that each age group is supposed to be meeting in preschool or in pre-K or kindergarten.
Jenny James, MA: Well, a lot of that takes experience. And I think also working with mentor teachers who have this experience and can pass on that kind of wonderment and learning alongside children, because in that instance, we were really learning with them. I think there's a lot of focus on safety. And to have a safe program, and to make sure that, you know, you're following all the licensing regulations and so forth, which you do want.
But I look back on my training and, at first it was keeping me from trying new things. Trying to keep everyone safe was almost like saving too much time. I wasn't able to let go and see where they would lead me. I was too much trying to lead it myself and keep everyone safe.
So when you realize that you can be safe and allow them to lead you, within normal boundaries, you don't want mayhem. But, you know, it is something that I think you learn over time as a teacher that you can both be safe and also allow that time for exploration and creativity.
Because I think it's just becomes very boring as a teacher, if you are always on task, every minute of your day, and there's if there's no room for free thought and extending those experiences, I think for myself, I would be burned out very quickly. So, you know, I think it's something maybe administrators need to remember, to help their staff understand that they do have freedom to observe and extend those wonderment sort of experiences with the children.
Emily Garman: Yeah, that's a good point. You have to have an administration who backs you up there and sees value in these things. It isn't just about doing worksheets and getting kids on the tablet and stuff like that.
Lea Ann Christenson, PhD: And I think you have to have a deep understanding of whatever standards your facility, your state, your county, whatever is using. Some people including myself sometimes want to resist that. But if you get a deep understanding of that you're going to be able to explain to parents, explain to administrators how what you're doing does connect to the standards that they want the kids to master through testing.
And, I think a teacher has that strategic is strategic about thinking about that and not just like, oh, those people don't know what they're talking about, but finding the connections that are developmentally appropriate or developmentally, there are some standards that are not developmentally appropriate, no matter what you do, but most of them, there's a developmentally appropriate inroad to them, and that the person who wrote them that might not see but you as the early childhood expert see, and then you explain that to people, that yeah, it looks like this.
But guess what? It's leading directly to the standards that you're requiring me to teach. So, yeah.
Emily Garman: It's got to be good for teachers to get outside, too. You were talking about burnout and feeling like you're doing the same thing every day, but to just get outside, even if the weather's not great, just being outside yourself is rejuvenating. And good for us as human beings.
Jenny James, MA: Absolutely. It can make the biggest difference in your day when we have to have indoor recess because of the weather. But yeah, those days, nobody's happy. Yeah.
Lea Ann Christenson, PhD: Those are long days.
Jenny James, MA: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we all, as human beings, we need that time outside. We really do. And and we deprive ourselves of it a lot of the time. We get used to kind of, nesting, you know, in our comfortable zone, but, I. Yeah, it's just so good for us to get out there.
Emily Garman: Jenny, do you feel like the parents whose children attend your school really are on board with this? Do they get it, or do you do you ever have parents pushing back, saying, well, I just don't feel like there's enough academic progress, and I want my child to be reading by now and they're not. Or do they pretty much understand that this is important and this is part of getting their child ready for school.
I mean, I know the, the peers among parents of my own child. There have definitely been people who seem to really want a lot more academic pressure, even at kindergarten, first grade. You know, when I'm like, guys, why are you asking about homework? This is crazy, right? They wanted it, though. It was hard for me to understand that at first. They really wanted those things. And so I'm just curious what your experience has been like with the parents in your program.
Jenny James, MA: I think we do have people that seek us out because we have an outdoor area and we spend at least 45 minutes outside in the morning. So there are people that are looking for a nature-based program. And then we also have parents that are concerned about the weather if it gets a little bit chilly, even though we say, dress warmly, mittens, you know, hats.
We'll make sure your child is warm enough. They have the impression that they will get sick if they're outside in the cold. So we do have some educating that we do on that. And we're very up front. So I think that it's, it's kind of who we are. And so if you wouldn't want your child to have that experience, you wouldn't sign them up with us.
So we have seen an a real it's kind of like, almost like an awakening among some families that this is really what they want, especially, I think, families with boys, will tell me, you know, this is how you're really going to see him shine. He loves outside and this is what he needs.
And so I feel like we're really meeting their needs, because they can't imagine their child in an academic setting and doing well, so they feel more confident sending them to our school, knowing they're going to do well here. They're going to listen, this is their thing. And they do.
Lea Ann Christenson, PhD: And they'll be ready for school. They will be ready. They will have the academics and the social skills they need to meet with success when they get to kindergarten, first grade.
Jenny James, MA: Yes. Yeah. And I just wonder how many kids that really, really need this in kindergarten, first and second grade, that could really shine. Could really, be served by this kind of built environment, because the children that we have had that have had ADHD and our program does so much better when they're in that outdoor classroom environment. So, yeah, I think there are parents that realize that.
Emily Garman: I think there's definitely an argument for extending this kind of education, further into elementary school, through second grade, maybe third grade. Kids don't just suddenly become ready when they're the age for first grade, to sit in desks all day. I mean that there's still little kids who need to move around. So it seems like it makes a lot of sense to continue it even through grade school.
Lea Ann Christenson, PhD: especially when there's this movement not even to have recess. Right? Because we need more time to learn. But if you had more recess, maybe the children would be more ready to learn.
Emily Garman: I mean, doesn’t the research and the evidence prove that out? Time and again?
Lea Ann Christenson, PhD: It does. But it for whatever reason, I don't know, for whatever reason, and it’s over time. You go back to Fröbel inventing kindergarten, right? This isn’t something somebody made up today, right? Little human beings are little human beings. And how they develop and I don't know why policymakers or whoever won't listen to just kind of common sense, right? Anybody who's been around a baby or a toddler or a three year old, right? I don't know, I don't have an answer for it.
Jenny James, MA: I mean, there's ways that financially I think it would all balance out. But you do want teachers that are well-educated outside with the children. And many times that's kind of the time when the teachers take their break, and the fill-in staff goes outside and they're much more in a supervisory role and not maybe picking up on those learning experiences that the children are having.
And so in that way, it might be more expensive to actually have teachers outside at that time.
Lea Ann Christenson, PhD: And Jenny, that’s a good point. We're not talking about recess. We're talking about an outdoor classroom. So your ratios are still what they would be in a classroom setting. But just totally agreeing with your point. A lot of times people say, oh, this is just trying to make sure they don't fall down or push one another. Right. But that's when you have more kids in a space, right?
Fewer adults. And it does turn into that policing, so to speak, versus what I see at your school where the ratios are still in a at a classroom level. And it's part of the learning experience. Not recess. Right. That's not recess. This is good. But this is beyond that.
Emily Garman: Thanks for joining us for this conversation with Dr. Lea Ann Christenson and Jenny James. As they've shown us, outdoor education is powerful, practical and within reach, even for schools with limited resources. When we bring learning outside, we're not just helping children grow. We're helping them thrive.
Be sure to check out their book, Dig In: Outdoor STEM Learning with Young Children for even more ideas. And we'll see you next time on Early Childhood Chapters.